What eurofantasy is about

You are perhaps thinking of Qelong, which is also a South-East-Asian inspired setting, but makes this assumption?

Doesn’t “High Fantasy” fit the bill?

As for the “default white”, my experience differ from @yochaigal’s: I generally find that players imagine the characters looking like their player (or the referee in case of NPCs) until otherwise stated. But my sample of players could very well be biased.
That being said, I figure that even players that have a fixed default NPC in mind no matter who plays them would at least make it fit with the setting they are playing in.

Spwack, if somebody has a better term that can express it, I’d welcome it. I agree with you.

I can see, though, how my European friends here experience the prefix “euro-” differently. It’s always interesting to hear different perspectives.

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I believe it’s partially motivated by the same mechanism that “makes” me think of a white (and specifically Hungarian) man when I hear “Man walks into a bar” joke. I’m pretty sure that when Chinese people tell their own quintessential jokes, they imagine Chinese people in them.

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Ynas, what you say is like Xenophanes. If lions had fantasies, they would look like lions!

As I contemplate the conversation we’ve been having (for which I thank you all), the view recurs to me yet again that our fantasies are closely constrained by our lived realities. I think this is Ynas Midgard’s point. Much of our imagination is based on our personal experiences. That was the point in introducing the eurofantasy concept (the intended meaning of which I hope by now you all understand, whether or not you like the word). It refers to a generic fantasy populated by people who look European by default and whose material culture is a pastiche of (mis)apprehended European historical elements. Yochaigal spoke of “defaultism,” that the default of the fantasy is white, and you have to say so explictly if it is not. If you live in a relatively homogeneous social setting, such as a country defined by one ethnic nationality, with very small minorities who look similar to the majority, this is not the same issue; your fantasies may be homogeneous by default, reflecting your lived setting. But if you live in a typical US city, for example, and other places, the population has changed–according to plan, always contested but nevertheless deliberately–so much that the default has changed and these assumptions no longer make sense.

What Whidou said is, I think, often true: when you play an alter-ego, it’s based on yourself. (This may not hold for non-human characters.)

By contrast with the experience of many, here in the USA, most of the gamers I know now are not considered white. If they have European ancestry it is one of many elements. These include my wife and children and all but one of the boys my son plays with. If one looks at the presentation of generic D&D fantasy, by contrast, until quite recently there have been few generic fantasy images that reflect the heterogeneity of the gaming population that I know now. It is the discrepancy between the state of white suburban Midwestern US-American society of the ‘70s, in which D&D originated, and the state of many US-Americans’ social surroundings today.

Regardless of the “authenticity” of the “European” fantastic pastiche I called eurofantasy–which Europeans should feel free to criticize for its “untrue” character–it is understood as “Western” or “European” in origin by unspoken default. This may be originally a US-American issue, because Americans generally have little experience with Europe, but in any case it has been exported to the world through media like Hollywood (which Max mentioned) and games, including D&D, and received in various parts of Europe. If role-playing games had come from India or China, would Europeans have received it the same way? But it was Americans of European ancestral origin, who claimed that origin, who invented this game and exported it, and like Xenophanes’ lions, they made the fantasy in their own image.

The question this all addresses is how social realities condition our fantasy games. It would probably not be a big deal if these were not immersive and engrossing games in which players often identify deeply with their characters. Yochaigal pointed out that the default is white. When my daughter plays, for example, she feels she has to say what color her character’s skin is, without prompting or query, whereas “white” players I’ve played with do not. I tried to explain why this situation is so in historical terms, and why recent social changes have made it an issue among gamers now, whereas it was not so before. The term eurofantasy was a convenience I used to describe a pervasive variety of generic fantasy contrasted with other possible fantasies abstracted from non-European sources and peoples. It is a concept for that contrast, nothing set in stone. Even if Europeans dislike the term, I will be happy if I have managed to express why it is an issue, at least in the USA, where D&D and most of the hobby’s production originates, and why it matters.

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According to Xenophanes, we are probably always playing humans:

But this is for another topic…

Going back to the main topic, what I tried (and probably failed) to pass is that I feel that the “eurofantasy” term is bad at describing this kind of default setting because a lot of Europeans (me included) feel left out of that setting.

Yes, what are we really playing, when we play our characters, anyway?

I’m interested in hearing more, thekernelinyellow, about feeling left out. I can imagine ways that might be, but don’t know enough about your situation to understand. Feel free not to answer, because we all have our privacy.

This is all very interesting. I have friends in Europe and Israel that regularly ask me, “What is up with all this talk about race? Can’t we just play?”

As an immigrant to the US, I’ve never really felt “part” of the larger zeitgeist - be it that of European American culture or any other. At the same time, I am part of a niche community - I speak a different language than those around me to my parents and my child, and some of my friends. So I haven’t really felt “left out” like some might imagine, since I’ve always had a “place” to fall back to. My wife on the other hand is a descendent of the Mayflower on both sides, which is as about White one can be in the US. Her assumptions were always based on the same Defaultism that we talked about before: everyone is White and speaks a certain way, unless otherwise indicated. We’ve played many games (ttrpg and otherwise) together over the years, and these cultural differences absolutely shape how we perceive the “story” and its characters. Interestingly the biggest differences were in what we consider threatening. For her it was people, whether in the form of dark hordes or zombies.

For me it was ideology: fascist or otherwise. I grew up with Survivors of the Holocaust, and my frame of reference, especially around body horror, is very different than others than I know. Stuff like LotFP is absolutely horrible to me, and I really don’t get why people like it. And that’s OK.

As to Eurofantasy/American Colonialist Fantasy/etc… I’m not sure I can add much. Over the years I’ve done lots of reading on the big boys: Vance, Wolfe, etc. And I love them. But I cringe when they describe someone as beautiful, because I know what’s coming: pale skin, curly blonde hair, blue eyes. That doesn’t look like me or my family. And that’s OK - neither does my wife. But when all you read/see is shaped from the same mold… It has an impact. My sister struggled to assimilate in the US, especially around her physical appearance: hairy arms and legs, dark black hair and dark skin. Today, they’d say she was exotic or something. All she knew was that she didn’t look the way everyone on TV looked. So it is important when we have non-European/American representation.

That said, I’m not advocating for White Americans to start arbitrarily including people that don’t look like them or talk like them in their Art. Only that they make room for people that don’t look or talk like them, however possible.

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I think that my discomfort comes from the fact that I know that I’m somewhat expected to feel included, but I don’t. There is always something, sometimes major, sometimes not, that makes me feel like they are not talking about me and my people. Italian Middle Age was very different from the rest of Europe, because we had a predominance of city states over the nobility, and we still see it in the regional divisions and the shape of our cities. So every time I read this “generic medieval setting”, it’s really different from what has left its traces two blocks from where I am reading it. And, as I said above, we used different weapons and reading a translated novel/game/setting always feels weird, because the words are wrong. And another thousand small paper cuts, that makes you say “OK, maybe they thought to be thinking about me, but they really didn’t”

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I think I understand, and it makes sense. When I pursued a university degree in medieval European history, I used to tease my colleagues that when they said “medieval” it meant really only France and England. The problem is the construction of the medieval. I had one instructor who specialized in medieval Italy, and he had a similar complaint. I think that you can feel rightly that you are not included in discussions of the generic quality of the “eurofantasy” (or any similar concept about generic European Medieval anything), just as medieval Spain or Egypt or Bulgaria, for example, are not included. You are right that they are not thinking of your country, for the most part, unless they want an idea of “merchant princes.” But it is all caricature anyway.

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That’s it in a nutshell. The idea that it represents something that it really doesn’t. What would you include in to make generic fantasy more in-line with your experiences?

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I can’t remember the last time I saw group of people discussing something on the internet in such a polite, educated manner. :slightly_smiling_face:

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There are lots of things I’d like to include, so this list is probably incomplete, but it’s a start:

  1. More city-states with democracy-like government. They were the spine of the Italian Middle Age and I feel like the make for an interesting setting (power struggle, political alignments and such).
  2. Two higher powers fighting each other (I had been thinking about making an alignment-like system for this, but with Guelph and Gibelline replacing Law and Chaos). Again, this would open up to interesting power dynamics, having the alignments be a political stance with immediate, real world consequences.
  3. More focus on mercenary companies (while I don’t like the system and the setting, which turned out too baroque, Brancalonia does a good job at this, turning the party into a mercenary company, with the GM at its head).
  4. A different approach to religion. While I like the more pagan feeling of most fantasy religion systems, I feel that settings which use a lot of saint-like creatures hit “closer to home”. A nice example is Sebastian De Castell’s Greatcoats series (in general, it feels more “eurofantasy” than most of what is branded eurofantasy nowadays, because it takes from all Europe).
  5. More religious institutions. We had (and still have) lots of monasteries from different orders, each one doing its own thing. Most fantasy settings just have temples with clerics inside.
  6. More cultural fragmentation, both between races/species and inside them. Here, you might have needed to learn a new language every day you spent walking in the same direction and we came from the same culture. I imagine that, if you replicate the same system across different species you are going to get even more differentiation. Like Orks from the South prefer swords and speak a language with strong Gnomish influence, while Orks from the North use axes and have strong Dwarfish influence (but Northern Dwarves have some Elvish influence of their own, as opposed to their Western cousins who speak with a pronounced Halfling accent…).

This obviously applies to Italy, but I think it won’t really work for a Spaniard or from somebody from Eastern Europe.

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I read someplace that this was the original intention behind Law and Chaos. In war games, certain units were restricted to certain political allegiances (e.g. French vs English). The same mechanic was translated to fantasy games via cosmic alignments, I’m sure because they were broadly applicable and required less in-world politics.

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So this would be even more old-school! Beautiful!

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What are you thoughts on Coins and Scrolls mercenary developments? There are quite a few interesting posts under the tag

I wrote about the origins of good vs evil and law vs chaos in role-playing games here.

My focus was on how alignment doesn’t fit with dungeon treasure-hunt adventures.

But, yes, alignment arose from wargames, to describe factions. It meant simply which side you were on in a war.

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I’m entirely new here, and just read through this whole chain.

This is a fascinating discussion. I think at this point it’s a given that the tropes of D&D are rooted in a kind of pseudo-euro-medievalism that’s really more a mish-mash of Americanised views of European myth (as thekernelinyellow pointed out).

My question is whether this might also have influenced play-loops, and whether creating non-McEuro D&D also might need to interrogate the play-loops of civilisation->wilderness->loot dungeon->civilisation that seem to me to be the default in OSR-style play (caveating that of course every group has variance in how they play)

I’ve been thinking hard about what Asian D&D looks like, especially Asian D&D during the Colonial period (eg, Carnatic Wars, China’s 20th-c. Warlord period, Meiji restoration).

thekernerlinyellow suggested a greater focus on city-states, regional difference and mercenary companies; for me it would probably involve play around a powerful but decaying central authority, with the presence of multiple foreign factions seizing local advantage.

My question is, what other ways are there to make alternatives to ‘eurofantasy’ (as inaccurate as the term is), which don’t involve reductive palette swaps where you just call all the orcs ‘oni’ and give them clubs?

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You are the author of this, correct?

I’d love to hear how you think that fits in to the discussion here.

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Yup, that’s me! I literally just posted that yesterday, so these ideas are still very half-formed.

I have a nascent thought that’s struggling to hatch about how D&D’s ‘McEuro’ trappings aren’t just about cultural referents, but also a certain way of looking at the world. Culture and representation is part of it, but if we were to (for a crude example) swap out pale-skinned blue-eyed elves for Malay forest-spirits and changed all the villages to kampungs, D&D would still play in ways that feel…foreign? Or at least distinctly un-asian for me. Like a party of D&D adventurers going around and completing quests would still feel different from Chinese wuxia, or South-East Asian hero-myths.

I guess I’m just wondering how to make D&D feel more like home.

One idea I had was a stronger grounding in communities and regions, rather than independent adventurers going from town to town. This is your home region, and here are the industries your grandfathers and your fathers worked in. This other place is run by a rival princeling, and there’s centuries of rivalry between your people and his, and this is also why you can never go to village X. Kinship ties matter. Money still matters, but after every dungeon-raid the party has to ask: how does this affect the people I have kinship-ties with?

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Er. I typed out all that and realised I never actually discussed my blog post.

My post is similar to thekernelinyellow’s great list about how to make D&D more grounded in their national history: ground it in specific social contexts, tie the PCs to local conditions, pivot away from the D&D trope of young adventuring parties going out into wilderness to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make something of themselves.

In my specific case, I want to take the chaos of Colonial-era India / China / Japan as that starting frame and have that as a backdrop that informs a game.

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