Introducing young players to RPGs

How to introduce a new player is a tough call. It is relevant to the issue of making 5e into an OSR-style game.

My son never saw live streams to get excited about D&D. He saw live play. Some kids at his school were playing 5e during recess, mini sessions every day. A small crowd hovered to watch, including my boy. He told me about the game and wanted in, but these young players didn’t really know how to play. I had to run games for him or he would think D&D was arena fights with monsters from the Manual. Now he runs D&D for his friends (online during the pandemic).

Initially, I had dug up my crinkled-up Moldvay Basic copy from 1981–my preference if I was arm-twisted into playing D&D. My son looked at me and said, apologetically, “Yeah… the kids in my school will never play this.”

Why not? you ask. First, they’re kids without cash. Parents had already gifted some of them the books they found in Barnes & Noble or on Amazon: 5e books. Then it all comes down to glossy presentation, high production value, cool power-ups per level, per class, and evocative fantasy art in synch with the present times. Only one kid in my son’s gaming group is white (mine is “mixed”), and the uniformly European image of old-time games is subtly off-putting to these kids who want to identify with their heroes but are trapped with us in a racially-charged reality that conditions our imagination. 5e is more in step in its image with the changing demography of the Anglophone world on this front.

In short, it doesn’t matter what the rules of the game are. New kids will play 5e, and today’s kids are tomorrow’s gamers. The more old people tell them “that’s not the real way to play” the more they will ignore them. Imagine, you grognards, that your dad told you, “None of that softie fantasy wizard stuff! This is how to play,” and pulled out some dusty Avalaon Hill tactical wargame. These kids want a chance to be heroes and to have the ability to make a difference, and OSR gamers want them to tap the dungeon pavement with a pole and take a year to get to second level.

The new kids will hack their 5e games with house rules in any case, just as we hacked our rules, because D&D rules have always been dysfunctional (in my opinion). Somebody suggested to me that one reason for the popularity of D&D is that you pretty much have to house-rule it to make it work, because it’s terrible. The idea is that it forces you to think about rules, and get engaged with the game, because they’re so clunky.

The newest players, Middle School boys and girls, are excited by presentation, and that is what they will invest in. The OSR people have a lot of work to do on this front, if they care about new players. Focus on kids’ interests and input, boys and girls, and not on groaning about the times of yore, says I. The “Old-School” label was an embarrassing self-inflicted injury on this niche of the hobby, and polarizing, too.

My suggestion is that you encourage all new players (like your nephew, SunkenPlanets) to play 5e. OSR, I find from experience, is a turn-off for lots of kids, especially when grognards groan about “the way it used to be, the way to do it right.” You already lost the fight when you said we’re OSR, “we’re original” (especially when that’s not true). Kids don’t want original. They don’t want cooler-than-thou posturing. They want fun. Focus on that.

What do I think you should do instead? Let them play 5e but produce “rules streamlining” sets that are OSR-style Trojan Horses. Call it “high-risk adventure” not “old-school.” It should come with a slightly speedier character creation kit, simplified stat blocks for monsters, and more inclusive images. This will get new gamers to play 5e more in the way you like.

I think you’re right that gamers who play 5e will have more friends, too!

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You can cut out a whole lot of middle men and just run Quick Quest instead. OSR simplicity, 5e mouthfeel.

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DandyMan, I did something like this for a family gathering at the request of the younger generation. What we used was Tiny Dungeon D6 2e. It is really excellent for one-shots and introductory play. OSR-style is certainly possible. My kids loved it and so did the newbie grown-ups who played, too.

But when I suggested that my son use it with his friends instead of investing in 5e, he frowned. “I like it, Dad, but nobody I know [he means 11-year-old boys] is going to play a game with the word Tiny in the name.” These youngsters are not interested in “tiny” fantasies.

I suspect that the same would go for Quick Quest. It looks cool to me, and I’d use it if my other games weren’t around, but it can’t compete with the gloss and the literal weight of the tomes by Hasbro for appeal to kids who want something really complex and deep, perhaps for the first time in their lives.

Personally, I love these kinds of micro-rulesets. They are liberating. And I’m one of those gamers who played GURPS for years. Thank you for sharing Quick Quest!

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Thanks for your recommendations, Lichvanwinkle. I think I will go with the 5e. It’s a good point that kids will hack their game anyway, to make it fit them.

I kinda wanna see what 5e/6e looks like in 15 years when the current rpg generation has grown up - what their houserules are gonna be, how their playstyle will have evolved, and how they’ll react to the next big system.

I’m not sure I agree. I’ve found that the complex behemoth that is 5e is often a big turn off for prospective players. Plop down the Starter box basic rules for 5e in front of my middle school players, and their eyes all glaze over. You can’t just hand new players a 5e character sheet and expect them to be able to grok it. It was the same way with my mom, and my grandparents. Just seeing the character sheet made them lose interest immediately.

Now all this is from my personal experiences, BUT:

There was such a positive difference when I introduced the uber-simple Index Card RPG to these aforementioned players. I don’t think tons of rules, shiny art, or “superpowers” are necessary for kids (or people who’ve never played RPGs before) to dive into RPGs. I’d even argue that it can be a hindrance for people who are potentially intimidated by all the work they need to put in up front before they even get to play in a session and determine if it’s something they want to pursue further.

Everyone wants to have fun when they play RPGs, OSR or not. I don’t really understand where all this posturing non-sense is coming from, I’ve found that most people in the OSR are really appreciative of potential new players regardless of what system they’ve dabbled with in the past.

This I agree with you on. But OSR is so much more vast than past editions, and a lot of new OSR games are great for kids and have attractive presentations. I consider ICRPG osr-adjacent, and it has great production values. @QuestingBeast is a teacher, and I believe he runs osr games using his own compact rulesets such as Knave (my system of choice right now) and Mazerats. Both those games are a 100% osr, but are much more approachable than 5e because of the tight design (Knave is only 7 pages) and intuitive player goals (survival = winning).

Osr games are usually way cheaper than 5e books. Knave costs 3 bucks, and I can print out a few copies and bam I’ve got rulebooks for everyone at my table. If my younger players want to invest further into osr products, they don’t have to get a summer job to afford them.

This is a very strange argument in my opinion. I’m a Person of Color™, and all my gaming groups are extremely diverse; not once has anyone expressed any sentiments against books of the OSR. Now to be fair, I don’t play games that are strictly retroclones or the original D&D editions so maybe that slants my view. Regardless, I think the great thing about RPGs in general is that you can be who you want to play. All the characters I play are very unique, and I encourage players to make interesting and diverse characters for my campaigns. Imo, art serves only as inspiration 90% of the time.

I don’t think there’s a universally real way to play. Some of my friends LOVE 5e, and don’t enjoy osr games. That doesn’t mean my fun is any less real than theirs or vice versa. A few years ago, I was super into the whole idea of PBtA games, but none of my friends were interested. Doesn’t mean I went around telling my friends they were playing the wrong way, and they certainly didn’t discourage me from attempting to run these games.

I think this is a very controversial claim. A lot of kids have read the Hobbit and watched LOTR, and (in my experiece) have even more fun “poking around dungeon pavement” rather than needing to check their character sheet every 5 seconds to see how many uses of Abjuration Ward they have left. Also, there’s nothing inherently osr that stops you from getting “a chance to be heroes and to have the ability to make difference.” Gosh, last week my players (online) helped protect a dogman village, fought off a golem, and stepped through a portal to get transported to the shadowfell to rescue a few queen from a fortress of corrupt magi.

There’s a ton of different OSR games nowadays, and while they all have unifying themes, the minutia is very different. I’m willing to bet Mothership feels completely different from something like Into the Odd which feels completely different from Torchbearer. I don’t understand why many perceive osr to be in-conducive to character progression or creating cool narratives.

?

While osr will never be as popular as the latest edition of DnD, I think a lot of kids actually like the idea of old-school games. I game with some high-schoolers and they totally think it’s awesome to play DnD in a similar fashion to the trio in Stranger Things! We certainly don’t play ODnD or anything, but we emulate the mindset you have to have in order to enjoy games in that genre.

Anyway, these are just my $.02 on the matter. Stay safe and have a nice week :slight_smile:

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I dunno. I started gaming with Shadowrun 3rd edition and D&D 3.0. They certainly were complex systems, but that didn’t really turned me or my peers off.

The artsy ones are moderately expensive (considering page count only), but as you said the minimalist ones are very cheap. And there’s also Basic Fantasy RPG, which is something like 5 bucks on Amazon (for 170 US Letter pages).

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I’m sure kids would have fun in my OSR game (my nephews really liked playing Black Hack + Hot Springs Island), so I don’t think 5e is inherently more fun for kids. But, I’m not going to be their Dungeon Master, they have to do handle that on their own.

I’d want to offer help in hacking the rules though, help create homebrew content. I don’t currently own 5e, so I might have to buy a Player’s Handbook.

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Kingroy, I value your perspective! I think we see more eye to eye on this than your response suggests. Part of the difference in perspective may be a difference in background with games. I’m coming back to a hobby that has been transformed, after a very long absence, and, I infer from your self-intro in that intro thread, you are in your first glorious summer of gaming fun. Which is awesome.

I think there is one thing that everybody here is likely to agree about: 5e is not great, and it may be just bad (for our tastes, of course). It’s a rules behemoth, as you say. I’d use another, less polite metaphor. Simply put, though, I do not like it. I dislike 5e as it is presented even more than I dislike all previous editions of D&D, even the ones I’ve used as the basis for fun, even more than all the retroclones. My wife’s eyes glaze over at her 5e character sheet. It’s too much stuff for a new player and too much junk for me, a seasoned player. Contrast that with my son, who is also new. He sees detailed tomes and he wants to burrow in and master every stat. So do his friends.

The Index Car RPG is not something I’ve played, but my recent experiences with new players used the ultra-rules-light Tiny Dungeon D6. It was wonderful for that purpose. I read good things about Knave, too.

About posturing about “the real way to play,” and what’s “truly old-school” and what’s not… I think it’s just a matter of reading various OSR pundits’ take over the last decade, including those of the clone masters. It’s out there, and I’m not making it up. Maybe the reactionary character of it has died down or maybe players new to it don’t notice that aspect and so don’t propagate it. Of course, I can only agree with you that people who identify themselves as belonging to the OSR are appreciative of new players, but that isn’t the same thing as what I’m referring to.

If “old-school” gamers are playing not retroclones of D&D but completely new rules-lite games for dungeon adventure, then OSR has become a new thing entirely. As far as I’m concerned, that’s good news! In that case, though, it’s even less “old-school” and it really is a new school of gaming–which is my constant, and perhaps increasingly irrelevant, observation. I still think it matters to point this out, though, for the hobby as a whole. But I’ll leave that tangent aside.

My points about kids may be more relevant to a slightly younger set of kids than the ones you have in mind. About “kids without cash,” it was not about what’s more expensive or what makes more economic sense for kids. OSR games are indisputably much cheaper. I strongly dislike that marketing controls what people play. (Why else is everybody cloning D&D, of all games? It’s exactly because TSR ruthlessly squelched competition whenever they could, promoting a problematic ruleset with a generic fantasy vision under the “original” flag. That’s why D&D means “old-school” today. It could have been different. There used to be so much variety in role-playing games.) Anyway, my point was that parents in my area have determined what their kids will play by buying 5e because that’s what they saw and bought for their kids–because of the marketing, brand, and gloss. In any case, my eleven-year-old is not logging online with my credit card to buy even a $3 game to download, not without going through me or my wife. By kids without cash I meant kids without any financial independence.

About unintentionally racially-charged representations in gaming (the default of “white”), I am very happy that people of any ancestry can step outside that and just have fun and be who they want. That must be a part of gaming. As you must know, though, for a large number of people, these things matter more, and I can only respect that point of view. We certainly don’t need to have a conversation about race (!), but I think it matters how games are presented. Also, gaming back in the '80s, I saw some pretty abominably racist examples of play. But, again, maybe that was then, and the youthful gamers of 2020 are quite enlightened and representation is just no longer an issue. Do you think so?

I appreciate that you respect people’s fun regardless of rules. That said, there are “OSR people” who don’t respect other styles of play. There are also players who hold their noses at the OSR.

My claim about kids wanting to be heroes and not take a year to level-up shouldn’t be controversial, I’d hope. Yes, my kids have read The Hobbit about a dozen times between them, no joking. And I didn’t say that your players don’t want to be heroes. :slight_smile: I have talked to OSR gamers online who tell me, with a hint of pride at doing it the “old way,” that eleven sessions in, their B/X players are still working on getting to second level. That’s their way of fun, but the kids I know would quit.

I aroused a “?” from you about my comment on the self-injury entailed in adopting an “Old-School” label, so let me explain a little. … There used to be a hobby just called role-playing games. It was a single, mixed-up group of people who played all kinds of ways. Nobody said “We’re original” (except TSR with D&D, even though there were different games within a year of D&D). After not playing for a quarter century, now I’m back and there are separate tribes within the hobby that have distinct names and logos and talk amongst themselves and that even make fun of other kinds of gamers. You maybe have not seen this, but as I survey the changed landscape, it jumps out. OSR is this really innovative group that has a weird reputation, a reputation partly deserved, and that claims to be “original” when it’s not, because it’s innovation.

Your example of high-schoolers who think it’s cool to play D&D in the way they see it in a TV show is partly what I’m getting at. They have a mediated caricature of what the “original fashion” was, and they emulate that. And it’s wonderful that it’s fun for them! But the idea that it’s “how it really was” is wrong. It’s a genetically modified clone in retro gear. Again, if it’s fun, that’s great! You could just call it “fantasy roleplaying games,” and not need a special brand.

So, I hope that clarifies my intentions and I hope that we have more common ground. Mostly, I’m with you on two main things: (1) people should have fun however they want and (2) 5e is far from ideal.

In a way, you sound a lot like me back in '85. My friends and I said, “Why does anybody play D&D when there are all these other cool games to play that work better?” If somebody told me then, “Just give kids AD&D, because you’ll make up your own stuff anyway,” I would have scoffed at them and asked them why they’d play such incoherent, badly organized rules, when they could play T&T or RuneQuest (among many other examples). Now in 2020, I am saying, “Just give the kids 5e, because they’ll figure it out.” Isn’t that funny! The seasons change. Still, I could not convince my son that any other game would work for him and his friends. Why? Big, glossy, new books. He’ll figure it out.

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I introduced my younger brother (9yo at the time) to the hobby with rules-light systems such as Mothership and Knave. (he didn’t know what rpgs where until then). And since, I doubt that he ever held a d&d product in his hands. I think that because he started out with simpler, more roleplay oriented games he never understood the appeal of d&d. In his mind that is the way the game is played. I would say that how a player is introduced to the hobby, and by who greatly influences their preferences. And if the person is lucky enough not to be peer-pressured, they will figure out on their own how they want to continue their adventure into roleplaying.

I think the youth is much more inclusive in many areas nowadays. (not to say that assholes don’t exist). And WotC have made the game friendlier to all groups over the years. (cough TSR had strength debuffs for women cough) WotC’s marketing heavily focuses on the “be whoever you want to be” aspect. In my opinion that’s the primary charm of 5e, the amount of options for your imaginary character. People see all the pretty posts and pictures of other peoples elves and half-orc barbarians, and want to do the same thing.

P.S. I’m starting agree with you more and more that “OSR” is a silly name

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Hi everyone!

I’ve split this topic from the original since it has now become a new discussion with its own identity. This is also similar to Rulesets to introduce new players, which you might want to checkout for inspiration (or, if you feel that this two topics would work better as a single one, feel free to tag or PM me).

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