Shadowdark Wins 4 Ennies, incl "Best Product" & "Best Game", also a vid comparison w D&D 5.5

Would love to get some discussion going below, your opinions on Shadowdark and it’s success.

It has won:

-Product of the Year
-Best Game
-Best Rules
-Best Layout & Design,…

And that happened in a large field of (OSR) “competitors”, consisting of the many and outstanding RPG products that came out in the preceding year.

Here is a fair & balanced comparison to the newest D&D edition, which also illustrates why Shadowdark is certainly OSR with only a handful of modern rules/refinements.

Ennies: 2024 ENNIE Award winners - Wikipedia

I know that SD can be divisive, in my experience, almost everyone who has ever played it more than 2 sessions with a decent group loves it! Then there is maybe (very much a guestimate of course) ca. 25% of OSR adherents (who have usually never played it and say -sometimes vehemently- that they have little to 0 interest in ever trying it out) which dislike it.

Half of those seem to also dislike SD because the creator, Kelsey, did a very good marketing campaign, partially because she is acquainted or or friends with a few other big (OSR) “dungeontubers” that like Shadowdark and hence talked about it on their channels.

About that marketing campaign, it was nothing out of the ordinary for OSR kickstarters and had an initial budget of $2000, but that is not the perception that sometimes is out there, especially with detractors, the creator explains it here:

https://old.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1eoxynn/shadowdark_what_am_i_missing/lhk25r0/

She did well because the game simply gained traction, she reinvested some of the kickstarter proceeds into more advertisement and because she had built up a following and e-mail list for yeeeears by releasing well-regarded 5E modules etc.

Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts and experiences concerning SD. Obviously I am very positive about it, for all the reasons mentioned in the video above, and more. Being many sessions into playing it, I can safely say it will likely be my go to Fantasy RPG game system for a loooong time, though of course i’m never afraid to houserule a little or add a few fun things from other OSR rulesets. I own about 10 ish other well-regarded OSR systems that I can get rules or ideas from.

I don’t think I’d class myself as someone who dislikes it, or with no interest in ever trying it out, but I am one of those who has been put off by the marketing. I’ve too often in life forgotten that ‘good marketing’ rarely has any correlation with ‘good product’. Similarly with Ennie winners.

I’ve fallen afoul of this in the hobby sphere and regret not being more discerning before spending money on Zweihander, a product which I found somewhat underwhelming but was very aggressively marketed.

When the wave of Shadowdark videos washed over my Youtube subscriptions I instinctively recoiled from something that felt - for want of a better word - manufactured. Funnily enough, had it only been one or two of the channels I subscribed to mentioning it, or if I were only subscribed to one or two, I may well have taken a closer look, but when it was everyone raving about it my defences came down.

This may not be a fair reaction, and I may try it if someone local wants to play. After all I now regularly play OSE having held off trying it for years for similar contrarian reasons (though I don’t remember it being marketed quite so prolifically). If it shows that it has some staying power, and comes recommended with a tone of organic enthusiasm rather than exuberant hype, I could well come round to giving it a go.

Until then I’ve got far too many OSR systems myself to be tinkering with to get distracted by another! If I need something that might appeal to the 5e crowd, I’ve got Worlds Without Number. If I want a BX-compatible game with excellent layout and online tools, I’ve got Old School Essentials. If I want a BX-compatible game with mediocre layout but an affordable hard copy (and still fairly 5e-friendly), I’ve got Basic Fantasy RPG. If I primarily want an affordable hard copy that I didn’t feel the need to annotate before handing to a newcomer to the hobby, I’ve got White Box Fantastical Medieval Adventure Game, or Cairn. If I want something I could print out and hand out, I’ve got Knave 1e.

If it’s bringing in an audience who otherwise wouldn’t have explored the OSR, that’s great, especially if it acts as a gateway to them trying out different systems and cobbling together their own chimeric collection of house rules. It would be a shame if it usurped 5e only to become the new 5e i.e. seen by too many as the One and Only Way to play RPGs.

I guess I’m just not its target audience, and its presentation has not compelled me to join the bandwagon.

Now if it were to release an affordable physical copy that I could hand out without feeling an ache in my wallet, I’d be seeing it in a very different light!

1 Like

I appreciate your (honest) response! Sincerely. :slight_smile: I truly think nobody should ever spend more money on more systems than they need/will actually get some utility out of! But just to keep the discussion going, a thought experiment →

What sounds more likely, that:

A. ) A cabal of Dungeontubers, consisting of Questing Beast, DungeonMasterpiece, TheAlexandrian, Dungeoncraft, Dave Thaumivore, Roll for combat, Me Myself and Die, Trevor D.,… many of which have serious OSR credentials, all conspired in some sort of Cabal to manufacture all their positive reviews, videos and responses to Shadowdark, because some of them happen to be aware of or are friends with Kelsey?

All that, even though the majority of those have their own competing OSR rulesets or books and Kickstarters?

Every one of those Dungeontubers is sitting at that table and cheering the hell out of Kelsey and Shadowdark during the Ennies award speech below… So not only did they manufacture hype when it first came out ages ago, but they continue in their (nefarious?) marketing / support efforts, going so far as to cheer wildly during an award ceremony. ;p

On top of that, the manufacturing of excitement was so! effective that they fooled all five democratically elected and impartial judges, as well as all the voting public/regular RPGamers! And that alone is how and why SD got the 4 awards. →

“The ENNIES comprise two rounds. In the first round, publishers submit their products for nomination. Entries are judged by five democratically elected judges. The nominated products are voted on by the public in the second round.”
“Judges are volunteers, who follow a strict set of ethical guidelines. Chief among them is the vow not to have any professional relationship with any RPG publisher in the lead up to the awards.”

OR,

B. ) Yes, Kelsey and her wife did a spectacular job promoting SD and the Kickstarter which is why well-known Dungeontubers (some of which Kelsey knew somewhat or a lot) decided to review it and ended up actually loving it a lot. As such the public became aware of it too, and the Kickstarter did very well, and now, more than a year later there is vibrant community of groups that play it, a ton of 3rd party content and more, as well as recognition by way of the awards.

And that all the above is (also) because it truly is a great game that does do a few things very different than any other RPG, OSR or not? Sometimes popularity is only hype,… but sometimes popularity -especially when it is on-going and for more than a year and a half after release and among OSR gamers that have 0 connection to the creator- is well deserved and -also- based on merit, quality and innovation.

==

I own “Worlds Without Number”, lovely book! But (by comparison) it is so long, and so much small text and so many options and rules, hence my group and I have never played it, and was certainly an expensive book.

OSE, I had it for a year or two, never played it, there were some things about it that were too old school for me, just not enough of the few options and feel of more modern refinements (2e to 5e stuff) that I do enjoy. I sold that book.

5E, had all three books for many years, sold them.

BFRPG I used to play with my group, still have the books, it will always have a place in my heart, such a lovely community, creator and amazing price! Good game too, especially for what you pay. Hell, I literally ordered 10+ books and gifted them all to people. Just to spread the BSFRPG vibes into the world and to have more OSR things out there.

But honestly it BSFRPG doesn’t come even close to SD in terms of quality, art, playability, ease of use, clarity and terseness of the rules and innovation. Which is fine, after all BSFRPG isn’t trying to do the same thing, to me they are rather different & came about in totally different OSR eras.

I still have a bunch of other OSR books, but atm I can’t imagine playing any of them (other than perhaps Knave 2E, as a temporary experiment) instead of Shadowdark, at least not for my fantasy games and not long term. Because none of those other rulesets and books have all of the specific combination of things that make SD unique and work so well and so fast/easily for me and my two groups, one of those groups consists of quite a few people, for us all SD has meant:

-Great combo of modern and OSR rules
-Short read, very succinct yet complete, with plenty of monsters and things for DM included. It really does feel like you are getting DMG, PHB and MM in one, sure, shorter than the ones from 5E but certainly no less usable or enjoyable.
-Amazing layout and ease of use at the table
-Deadly yet fair, evocative Grimdark ish but also bit humorous vibe and art, great unique mechanics such as torch timer, talents etc
-Easily hackable, expandable and with a big thriving ecosystem. There are so many additional classes and rules out there, digital tools, character generators etc by Kelsey and maaaany others that I do not need to worry about having to put time in to write and add a bard, ninja, desert warrior or even an entire Dark Sun setting,… if myself or my players want it, it very likely already exists, sometimes for free, often for a very affordable price. :slight_smile:

I do agree that €55 is not “cheap”,. but if you consider the amazing quality of the book itself,… as well as the contents, i think it is absolutely a fair price! Especially if you see what the new D&D 5.5e books cost,. and with SD being one of the best alternatives to 5 and 5.5e…

Even if I didn’t love the system way more, even if hypothetically I found 5E and Shadowdark on par, I would muuuuch rather give my cash to Kelsey -who by all accounts is lovely person that loves OSRpg- than to evil Hasbro. Not saying that you love 5(.5), I have no idea, but only saying that indeed that Shadowdark is an awesome gateway or alternative to Hasbro stuff, and for some of us it is the end stop, like the only replacement (for both Hasbro stuff and possibly OSR products) we need for the foreseeable future.

I do very much agree that a paperback version, say for 20 to 32 € would be awesome! For fence-sitters, people from lower income countries, kids who can’t afford that much, etc. I think it would bring even more players into the SD and OSR fold, but otoh, I have no idea how viable that is and if it wouldn’t even be bad business for the creator.

They went for high production values, the binding, paper/page quality and layout outshine 5.5E, and perhaps that is intentional and they want to keep it that way? Not sure. Of course people can always buy the PDF and have their own POD copy made for little.

I know,… I sound like a Shadowdark car salesman. xd I give you my word, I have 0 affiliation with Kelsey nor any of the aforementioned Dungeontubers, I just truly think it is a unique product, proposition and game experience that actually very much delivers on the hype and marketing. It proves itself very much in the eating of the pudding. Not saying you should go out and buy it and play it, but perhaps you could read the PDF sometime, if you haven’t already.

Either way, even if you never play it, that is of course more than fine, if you are playing your system of choice and everyone in your group is totally happy with that one = you are doing it right and winning! :grinning:

But if someone wanted to switch from 5E or get into OSR or had 0 experience in TTRPGs and wanted to start playing, I would not hesitate to steer them to SD if they could afford the €55. Beats the hell out of the $180 Hasbro is asking for the new PHB+DMG+MM.

If they could not afford €55, the beauty of the OSR is that there is about 2 to 4+ viable alternatives -that don’t offer the same exactly, but that are also very good and that cost less-. Swords & Wizardry, BFRPG, White Box Fantastical Medieval Adventure Game, Black Sword Hack – Ultimate Chaos Edition and a few more.

Ok, while I am doing unpaid propaganda hehe, this is not me on Reddit nor my post but somewhat relevant to the hype/this discussion:

https://old.reddit.com/r/shadowdark/comments/1ej4n11/while_the_iron_is_hot_i_made_this_graphic_to/

I’ve been postponing looking into Shadowdark for a while, mostly because of the discourse around it, honestly. I’m not saying I finally had the time, energies and gaming groups necessary to get through my “want to play pile”, which only gets taller, but I could have squeezed it in if I wanted.

I don’t watch YouTube videos, so most of the reviews/marketing completely missed me. I only got posts like “despite the aggressive marketing campaigns…” or “I hate SD’s marketing” or such. And, honestly, if I had the time and energies to look into SD I wouldn’t use them to look into SD’s marketing.

This is just to say, @Grognard could you provide us with some play report or something showing what you liked at the table? Because I really didn’t encounter much of this kind of reviews (at least not in a form I consume), but I don’t think I’m the only one to find them useful.